Gillmor Gang recording live 1PM Pacific http://www.building43.com/realtim...
Susan Beebe,
Paul Papadimitriou,
Laura Norvig,
Christian Burns ,
Orli Yakuel,
David Damore,
Louis Gray,
Rocky Barbanica,
Rob La Gesse,
Julien,
Benjamin Golub,
Mike Doeff,
Brett Slatkin,
Robert Scoble,
Ryan,
Karoli,
Cliff Gerrish,
beersage,
Brian Hendrickson,
Abbas,
Josh Fraser,
Chris Jackson,
and
Ivan Zuzak
liked this
http://www.building43.com/realtim...
- Susan Beebe
Will be live in a few minutes!
- Robert Scoble
t - 2 min and no video http://www.building43/realtim...
- Chris Jackson
and just as i speak - there is video.....
- Chris Jackson
I'm standing by waiting for call.
- Robert Scoble
Brett Slatkin is our special guest, software engineer at Google on AppEngine.
- Robert Scoble
cool, welcome Brett :)
- Susan Beebe
waiting for a call here too B-)
- Brett Slatkin
follow for correct b43 url
- Steve Gillmor
Awesome, Go Brett! GAE and PubSubHubbub FTW!
- Julien
Brett - will there be any mention of django in this segment?
- Chris Jackson
There can be! Whatcha want to talk about with Django specifically?
- Brett Slatkin
Any minute now. I just joined in.
- Robert Scoble
Do test patterns still make sense in this "modern" world?
- Bob Wyman
Hey Bob
- Brett Slatkin
well - im new to django and the main reason to use django was so i can get femiliar with python so later on move to GAE.
- Chris Jackson
It's on! Echo from @scobleizer :)
- Julien
Brett Slatkin, Robert Scoble and Kevin Marks now on GillmorGang Live at: http://building43.com/realtime
- Cliff Gerrish
Dave Winer :)
- Susan Beebe
Are you still hearing an echo? I'm not.
- Robert Scoble
no
- Susan Beebe
No echo here.
- Ken Sheppardson
audio is great here in philly
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Light pinging causes "thundering herds"
- Bob Wyman
No more...
- Julien
has he posted the fact that he's changed his mind? ;)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@bear : he did :)
- Julien
You don't.
- Darren
Bear, it was on his blog.
- Bob Wyman
oh poo - everytime I think I can make a fun/somewhat-snarky joke I get bit
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
PSHB is a great protocol... we've got some exciting real-time stuff coming out next week that uses it.
- Matt M (inactive)
Hi Brett, Julien.
- Darren
bear -- "It's often mentioned as the reason people prefer PubSubHubBub over rssCloud. By providing for a fat ping, we erase that advantage. Now the two methods are at least at parity, with an edge to rssCloud because, once CloudPipe is done, it will work for clients that are behind firewalls and NAT, and PSHB does not." -- http://scripting.com/2009...
- Ken Sheppardson
I want to know if there's going to be a cheesy RSSCloud video.
- Cliff Gerrish
Who isn't blocked by him? Welcome to the crowd...
- Bob Wyman
:D
- Julien
I'm not, *ducks* :)
- Susan Beebe
Yay! A lot of companies... and much more to come!
- Julien
I like where he's going with this. :)
- Darren
Cliff - is there a video for PubSub??
- Chris Jackson
Chris, this one is the best: http://www.youtube.com/watch...
- Matt M (inactive)
:)
- Chris Jackson
Julien :)
- Susan Beebe
Brett : we're just starting to see Netvibes hooks at Superfeedr for Tumblr and Posterous's hubs :)
- Julien
rssCloud is still *different* in that it addresses pumping data through firewalls. However, there are many (including myself) that consider that a "bug" not a feature. PSHB is server to server protocol and leaves that server to client protocol as a distinct question. Thus, PSHB systems can integrate with long-polls, XMPP, WebSocket, etc. -- whatever is best for the specific application. The problem with rssCloud is that it doesn't do a good job of maintaining distinct architectural layers -- the result is that it is less flexible.
- Bob Wyman
yea - suprfeeder!
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Julien - coool ;)
- Susan Beebe
Nice.
- Darren
yup... I wonder what Greader is doing now :)
- Julien
I use XMPP to consume PSHB pings with AppEngine, behind my firewall. It's about 10 lines of code on GAE.
- Matt M (inactive)
Yes! mistakes : undifferentiated callback url !
- Julien
agreed - having the same callback url for multiple streams is the worst
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Matt - is the xmpp support included in GAE? and do you have a url with the 10 lines of code??
- Chris Jackson
Diff'ing is atcually the hardest thing I think
- Julien
We tell them :)
- Julien
http://pubsubhubbub-xmpp.appspot.com/ is the basic client I've set up.. I should zip up the source and put it up there.
- Matt M (inactive)
thnx
- Chris Jackson
yes, please
- Ward Mundy
Chris, xmpp on AppEngine is amazingly simple. I've worked with xmpp for many years and still can't get over how easy the GAE made it to use.
- Bob Wyman
http://notifixlite.appspot.com/ is another example, source on github
- Julien
RSS + PubSubHubbub should be _hidden_ from the end user...
- Julien
@Julien absolutely! User shouldn't even know the stuff is there.
- Bob Wyman
Does the NY Times use PSHB for their feeds?
- Cliff Gerrish
No but I'm Julien would be happy to help them out.
- Darren
I'm sure happy to help :)
- Julien
Do they want to be helped out?
- Cliff Gerrish
We haven't even begun to see what the real-time applications are. This is like the web was back in 1993... You ain't seen nothing yet.
- Bob Wyman
Status.net/Identi.ca is putting PubSubHubbub at the core of its new redesign. I think it's an interesting usecase
- Julien
Absolutely. We generally see ~90% reduction in polling infrastructure costs.
- Darren
@Darren ; can I reuse that number?
- Julien
Definitely.
- Darren
I put that source up for the PSHB<->XMPP gateway on GAE: http://pubsubhubbub-xmpp.appspot.com/src...
- Matt M (inactive)
We're working on some great prototype for PBP on sports sites.
- Julien
It's just a minimal gateway example.. Julien's example or push-bot is more appropriate if you want a more pleasant experience.
- Matt M (inactive)
I'm on Skype now, sorry for the lateness, traffic hosed me
- Kevin Marks
Think of all the "mobile" apps on phones that are basically just "alerting" apps of one kind or another. Once we have a general infrastructure we'll see a tremendous number of specialized feeds being generated at vastly lower cost than what it takes to build this stuff today.
- Bob Wyman
Kevin :)
- Susan Beebe
Is Apple's notification platform built on Jabber?
- Matt M (inactive)
OMB + Salmon + WebFinger + Activity Streams = A Beautiful Thing
- Darren
nothing prevents PSHB from being another endpoint on an xmpp/amqp messaging backend
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Matt --yes, it uses xmpp (modern name for jabber)
- Bob Wyman
video can be done in the same was as jingle is done
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
@Matt : nope... it's webhooks based
- Julien
@Bob... oh, maybe I'm wrong
- Julien
Julien, now if status.net were intelligible re: installation, setup for geeky, but not ubertechie, users.
- Karoli
Would love to see YouTube PUSH.
- Darren
@Bob - oops.. I keep slipping back to the Jabber name. :)
- Matt M (inactive)
RT @Darren : Would love to see YouTube PUSH :)
- Julien
Robert - Google profile idea is awesome :)
- Susan Beebe
@Robert : feed readers could already indicated that, because they know what feed is hubbub-enabled
- Julien
If Google Reader implemented PubSubHubbub, they could show that!
- Julien
Today, we have the "web browser" which is a general tool for polling data resources. It seems reasonable to assume that in the future, we'll end up with yet-another-app which is the general tool for handling push data. Some startup will have great fun inventing that general push-client application. Today, most push apps require custom code. In the future, we'll use common apps to handle *all* feeds.
- Bob Wyman
Bob - isn't that kinda what google wants to do with Wave?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Yes, Cliqset does that as well.
- Darren
Bob Wyman : isn't it what Seesmic/Tweetdeck will eventually build?
- Julien
It's a shame that email is so fragmented and busted... IMAP already does all this stuff reasonably well. :)
- Matt M (inactive)
Mike, Julien, etc. Yes, just like there were many hypertext readers before TBL's took over the world. (I even had one....) Many people are trying to figure out what the push thing will look like. Somebody is going to figure it out, but I don't think they've done it yet.
- Bob Wyman
Bob - I remember the days before Mosaic and all of the protocol soup that was required to navigate the 'net back then
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Louis is a smart cookie :)
- Susan Beebe
@Mark : TwitterFeed is a PubSubHubbub subscriber so that works too
- Julien
I think real-time push is going to be blocked on WebSocket adoption. Long-polling HTTP is hard to do right.
- Matt M (inactive)
YELL LOUDER :)
- Susan Beebe
Matt, what on earth would the benefit be of blocking real-time push? that makes no sense
- Karoli
@Brett : send them real-time pings every 10 seconds :)
- Julien
Karoli, I meant blocked from a software-development point of view, waiting for browsers to support this universally.
- Matt M (inactive)
Matt, not really. They'll work together. Server-to-Server PUSH, Server to UserAgent Websockets, Long polling, etc.
- Darren
@Matt, Long polling has been surprisingly hard. I think it really became widely known back in '98 or '99 and there has even been the mod-pubsub module for Apache since about that time -- but, it was still too hard. WebSocket will definitely make all this vastly easier!
- Bob Wyman
I've wanted to work with long-polling for a while, but it's so finicky and hard to get right. Jetty and Apache support that stuff with a bit of configuration, but it's never hit a critical mass and become as easy as bog-standard HTTP.
- Matt M (inactive)
Brett : stop moving from left to right, you're making me sea sick ::
- Julien
matt - switch to nginx ;)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Sorry my chair was being weirdo
- Brett Slatkin
:D
- Julien
@bear - I've been eyeing Node.js a bit lately for that one ;) But it's definitely hard to find infrastructure that supports push over HTTP well - and each one has its own way of doing things.
- Matt M (inactive)
Julien & Brett LOL :D
- Susan Beebe
matt - node.js? you may have the same browser issues as you would if you went to websockets now
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Check out the first version of Nexus One's logo! (correct link) http://bit.ly/6hkwZq
- Miguel
PSHB + Salmon + WebFinger
- Bob Wyman
agree completely - WebFinger + xrds and then PSHB + Salmon
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Push is hard in the browser right now, but I hope that with one canonical push-capable websocket standard we'll start to see better support across the board for proxies to pass it through, as well as some standard patterns for dealing with it on the server side.
- Matt M (inactive)
Google Profile - could be master social profile ...hmmm
- Susan Beebe
@Susan... "Google Profile" will only be *one* of many profile services. The cool thing about WebFinger is that it allows users to choose between many different "profile" providers that are all discoverable in the same way.
- Bob Wyman
Yes!
- Darren
Evan doesn't use FriendFeed :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
Status.net FTW!
- Julien
Love that Scoble idea. WOW!
- David Damore
Bob - cool :)
- Susan Beebe
We need these to be broadcast for us right coasters :(
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Julien - what is FTW ?
- Chris Jackson
Chris - For The Win (YAY!)
- Susan Beebe
:) - oh - im getting old...
- Chris Jackson
hehe
- Susan Beebe
Mobile will be a big driver for "real-time" data. Is it raining? Is my bus late? Is there a traffic jam ahead? Do I have new email? Is there news since I left the office? Has the meeting started? Is Gilmore on live? This is all stuff you want to know when you're walking around.
- Bob Wyman
Palm Pre - LOL ... what's that?! :)
- Susan Beebe
Palm CEO is a dork - I've never used an iPhone - FAIL ... no wonder Palm is dying DOH!
- Susan Beebe
Google Contact sync on the iPhone/Android is a huge win for me. Mail, Calendar and Contacts are the big things I need on the phone all the time - they are always up to date.
- Matt M (inactive)
Use Google contacts EVERY day... would love a nexus one phone. I use the 'exchange' feature on iPhone for push with my gContacts
- Susan Beebe
We already use Twitter to make phone calls through Google Voice. Works great.
- Ward Mundy
@Susan, ditto. I started using the Facebook contact picture sync too.
- Matt M (inactive)
Oh yea, I don't get google voice on my iPhone either Grrr
- Susan Beebe
What's funny is that all my facebook friend's pictures ended up getting pushed back into google contacts. :)
- Matt M (inactive)
Matt - same here FB sync is cool
- Susan Beebe
Somebody's going to have to break up the Google monopoly of open source social networking developers...
- Ken Sheppardson
Ken, working on that...
- Kevin Marks
Hah... nice, Kevin :-)
- Ken Sheppardson
LOL --> "way above my paygrade" :) nice
- Susan Beebe
Is ping.fm heavily used? After Twitter and Facebook integration, it seems like a good idea for a third-place 3rd-party integration bit for startups
- Matt M (inactive)
/me hides his Seesmic badge
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Google should buy Seesmic / Ping.fm ... great idea
- Susan Beebe
That is, Facebook has a head start.
- Ken Sheppardson
@bear : I can't be the only advocate for PubSubHubbub at Seesmic :)
- Julien
We MUST have open protocols to ensure that no one can "own" your data. Where you put your data should be based on who gives you the best service, not just who you accidently gave it to first -- and you should be able to move your data whenever you want. The key is open protocols.
- Bob Wyman
Julien - oh, trust me - i've been bending some ears on that :)
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Errrr.... WebFinger doesn't actually require an "email address." Its just that that is what people will normally use.
- Bob Wyman
Is Cliqset building their system on a Google-acquisition-target-friendly platform?
- Ken Sheppardson
you should be able to use a JID for webfinger - right?
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
Bob webfinger wants an email-like identifier; facebook doesn't have one. FB, twitter have url-like IDs
- Kevin Marks
@Kevin Right. It is "email-like" but not necessarily actually an email identifier.
- Bob Wyman
How has this conversation gone on for nearly an hour without any Apple tablet speculation? Y'all call yourself tech experts? ;-)
- Ken Sheppardson
It's old news Ken
- Brett Slatkin
one of the reasons I like this show - it's not a mirror of "mainstream" tech news
- bear (aka Mike Taylor)
The code name for tablet is 'phone.'
- Cliff Gerrish
BTW, is there any bubblegum left, Brett?
- Ken Sheppardson
Yes
- Brett Slatkin
Should eBay it.
- Ken Sheppardson
Feature creep - love that :) -- Not sure about homogeneous app platform either
- Susan Beebe
Best part about having Robert on the show is the random holding up of stuff.
- Ken Sheppardson
The future of app development for mobile is Appcelerator and Phonegap and other stuff that paves over the differences.
- Matt M (inactive)
Ken: :-)
- Robert Scoble
web apps is the answer?
- Tim Jones
My Apple mouse has no buttons. :-)
- Robert Scoble
Yeah, HTML5
- Ken Sheppardson
i agree with matt on that. appcelerator, phonegap & rhomobile should win because they're built on the open web.
- Josh Fraser
Web apps is a very good answer, Tim. HTML5 et al
- Kevin Marks
This is like the effect the Apple Human Interface Guidelines had on GUI / HCI for personal computing.
- Cliff Gerrish
Developing different apps for iPhone, Android, Palm webOS, et al is like having to develop different apps for Firefox, Chrome, IE, etc
- Ken Sheppardson
Yea, I have 200 bucks in iPhone apps...ouch, plus the 500 bucks for the 3GS and the contract
- Susan Beebe
We'll see more of "apps" that run in the cloud which have their interfaces running on devices. Apps will be independent of interfaces. iPhone, Android, Palm, etc. "apps" will be just interfaces to common back-end apps.
- Bob Wyman
17% smartphone penetration only, more users coming online not tied down yet
- Tim Jones
@Josh - yeah, exactly.. it's like a web app+ (the plus being access to optional per-platform features)
- Matt M (inactive)
this has been a great show...gotta run.
- Karoli
Bob: Sure, but the interface should to some extent be a function of the app, not the platform. I want gmail to look like gmail... the same interface... independent of which 3" touch-screen device I'm using.
- Ken Sheppardson
writing web apps for different browsers is now becoming trivial, but it's also taken us 10 years to get here. i wonder how much faster that will happen on the mobile web.
- Josh Fraser
iPhone developers tell me that Android is easier to build apps for
- Susan Beebe
Native iPhone and Android apps both require learning a platform first, which kind of sucks.
- Matt M (inactive)
Josh - I think it will be MUCH faster - cell phone adoption has grown faster than computer adoption ever did - and it has also made drastic advances on a faster timeline.
- Rob La Gesse
Would be slick if there were cross-platform standards for the device APIs, so my HTML5 app could just access GPS functionality, for example, and not care whether I'm on android or iphone or something else.
- Ken Sheppardson
IMHO: in 10 years, phones will ship with pico projectors and virtual keyboards/mice.
- Matt M (inactive)
Ken, your HTML5 app can do that - see geo.js http://diveintohtml5.org/geoloca...
- Kevin Marks
@rob, i agree. it largely depends on how long it takes for apple to open up.... which probably depends on how well the nexus does on sales.
- Josh Fraser
was UI a part in selling baziilion RAZRs?
- Tim Jones
@matt 10 years??? how about 2-5?
- Josh Fraser
Keyboards and mice may not be a primary interaction model in 10 years.
- Cliff Gerrish
GREAT SHOW :)
- Susan Beebe
Ok that's amazing! got roughly 20 emails from people listening to the show!
- Julien
Cliff, maybe - but there are always times where you can't interact verbally with your phone (classroom, meeting setting, bathroom ;)).
- Matt M (inactive)
Come along to http://tummelvision.tv on twit.tv tonight
- Kevin Marks
Best of luck Julien ;)
- Susan Beebe
I'm thinking Natal.
- Cliff Gerrish
that was fun. nice job guys.
- Josh Fraser
Natal for mobile?
- Matt M (inactive)
Kevin: Now if they could just shove contacts, calendars, camera, etc into HTML5, we'd be set (ala http://developer.palm.com/index...)
- Ken Sheppardson
Thanks for watching everyone!
- Brett Slatkin
Thanks for the great show, all... interesting as usual.
- Matt M (inactive)
I think Palm made the best initial choice for a mobile platform overall betting on web-style apps. You can't do everything in HTML/JS, but you can do a *lot*.
- Matt M (inactive)
Brett - Thank YOU - great show :)
- Susan Beebe
Missed it again. One of these days I'll set this show straight on RSSCloud!! ; )
- Matt Terenzio
I remember when everyone would complain because it would take Steve 2 weeks to post a show to the RSS feed. Now I just sit back and wait 10 days till it hits the bootleg feed and am grateful for what I can get :)
- Christian Burns